In this episode, we talk with Bob Lujano, NCHPAD Expert Inclusion Specialist (EIS) and 2004 Paralympian for Team USA’s wheelchair rugby team. To celebrate 20 years since his athletic achievement, Bob reflects on training and competing for Team USA, his time in Athens, Greece, the life lessons he’s learned and more.
An episode transcript is available below.
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Episode Transcript
Quick Navigation
- Intro
- How Bob Was Selected
- Preparing for the Paralympics
- Competition
- Bob’s reflections, what he learned and advice he has
- Final thoughts
*Edited for clarity
*Intro music*
Host
This is All Things Inclusion with NCHPAD.
*Music fades*
Host
Welcome to the very first edition of NCHPAD’s All Things Inclusion podcast. NCHPAD is the National Center on Health, Physical Activity and Disability, the nation’s premier center dedicated to advancing inclusion by promoting the health and wellness of people with disabilities. In each episode, we’re exploring topics at the intersection of inclusion, health, wellness and disability. If you have an idea for a topic, would like to learn more about a topic, or are interested in our free resources, programs and partnership opportunities, email us at nchpad@uab.edu, give us a call at 866-866-8896, or check out our website at NCHPAD.org.
*Music interlude*
Bob Lujano speaking at an event
This was the epitome, the pinnacle of my athletic career, winning this bronze medal. I worked hard for it – the sacrifices, missing family and things of that nature. I had to do it, and I’m proud of it. And if I got bronze, I got bronze. If there’s one thing about the games, they don’t give you anything: you earn what you get. We didn’t earn a gold; we earned a bronze, and I am happy with it. You write that on my tombstone: “Bronze medalist Bob Lujano, and he’s happy about that.”
Host
That’s Bob Lujano, NCHPAD Expert Inclusion Specialist and former Paralympian, speaking at the Paralympic watch party event held by NCHPAD this year to celebrate the opening ceremony in Paris. As an Expert Inclusion Specialist, Bob works to provide access to free, personalized resources and programs for individuals with disabilities. He has also been a member of the Lakeshore Demolition wheelchair rugby team for the last 27 years. He is a co-star in the Academy Award-nominated documentary Murderball, and the author of the book, No Arms, No Legs, No Problem. Twenty years ago, Bob was in Athens, Greece, competing in the 2004 Paralympics for Team USA’s wheelchair rugby team. To honor the anniversary of his athletic accomplishment and get his side of history, we spoke with Bob about his journey to the Paralympics. Note: this interview has been modified for clarity and brevity.
How Bob was selected
Bob
It was a very grueling process to be selected for Team USA. I always speak about this topic. I always say it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do, and that’s as a person, myself, with a disability who’s had over 25 operations and rehab stints for over six, seven months. So yeah, that in my life of 55 years, making that team and staying on that team was a very grueling process and very arduous.
I was in the US program for seven years, from ’98 to 2006, so I was very much in the prime of my athletic peak, if you will. The way the process goes, is we have about 500 men and women who play wheelchair rugby in our country. And we do have a rugby league in which we all play. There are about 44 teams throughout the nation. And like I said, over about 5,500 athletes, men and women. So the coaches will see you throughout the year, when you go to a tournament, or sometimes the coaches will have their own tournament.
Lakeshore was the home of the Lakeshore Demolition, and I joined the team in ’98. The coach of the Lakeshore Demolition, Kevin Orr, was also the US national team coach, and he got selected, I believe, in 2001. I had tried out for the US team in 2000 to go to Sydney and was just way over my head, although I did have a very good showing as I was cut on the last day. And being cut on the last day can leave kind of a sour taste in your mouth. Of course, you think you’re good enough, so I continued into the program, and every year I would have to come back and prove myself and earn a spot.
Eventually, Lakeshore Foundation became the home of the Team USA. So, it was great that I worked at Lakeshore, and then also had the training sessions right there in my backyard, so I didn’t have to get on a plane. So, the process starts with basically a camp that would go for about a weekend – sometimes it’d be a week. And it would happen about once every three months, and you go through lots of drills and play lots of rugby.
Probably the most grueling, physically exhausting drill was what we call the Lakeshore mile. Lakeshore has a 200-meter indoor track, so eight times around is a mile. So, you had to sprint that and push as fast as you can eight times around for a mile. My times were very good for my class. I was a class two. My time was six minutes and 47 seconds, which they expected now every time I’d come to the camp. “We’re going to do the Lakeshore mile, Bob, and you have to hit six minutes and 47 seconds.” Well, sometimes I will hit 6:50 or 6:51 and right away you get the, “What’s wrong with you? Are you not following your diet? Are you not training? Are you injured?” It’s just kind of the what’s going on with you type of scenario. So that made a little bit more pressure.
[The coaches] always reminded you that you’re one out of 500 on a team of 12 and could easily replace you if you’re not taking this seriously. And then rugby was also very physically grueling, and we would play all day, from sunup to sun down, with two or three sessions throughout the day. So, it got very physically demanding, and at times, I was kind of sick of rugby, because it just you get inundated to where [I’d think], “Oh my this is all I’m doing.” And you don’t want to show you’re just going through the motions. You want to show the coach, hey, I belong here, and I may be dead dog tired, but I’m going to give you everything I’ve got.
Preparing for the Paralympics
Bob
A lot of my training that I did was at the Lakeshore Foundation, and like I said, the blessing of being able to work there is that it was also the home of Team USA. My Team USA coach was also my boss at the time, so I got a little bit of insight into what workouts to expect, what type of conditioning I needed to be in and what drills I should be doing. Knowing also that he’s my club coach on the Lakeshore Demolition team, I very much knew his style and what he expected for people with that are class twos, which is what I am. So, I won’t say I had an advantage, but I had a little insight because there are still other athletes who are more talented than I am, especially in my class.
At that time, I’d probably make myself maybe top five class two, and again, this is out of maybe 100 or 200 class twos in the nation, so I guess that’s okay. But it did help to know who the coach was and [already] play in his system. But I knew going to Lakeshore, I had the best place to exercise. I had a fieldhouse I could use. I had hills outside in the parking lot where I could push up the hill. Pushing up hills in your wheelchair is very good strength training, as well as very much working on your push technique. Again, rugby is a battle of attrition. If you’re not as tired, then you’re not going to make as many mistakes at the end of the game. So if you’re just as fresh at the beginning as at the end of the game, then you’re probably going to beat your opponent. It’s a battle of attrition, just like all physical sports. And if you’re in the best condition, you’re probably going to hold your own.
So, I had the right place, a premier facility for people with disabilities in Lakeshore Foundation. I had access to the exercise specialists. I had access to the swimming pool, to the weight room, to the track, to the hills – everything that I wanted. I had access to my sports psychologist and nutritionist. So, I was very, very fortunate that I was living and working here in Birmingham, Alabama, and a member of the Lakeshore Foundation, which allowed me to have access to all these facilities.
Host
Bob shared his insight into his experience in Athens.
Bob
So, the Athens Paralympic Games. We left on September 4th. And I will always know this because I had just bought a house in 2004. I closed on September 4th. So, I left on, excuse me, I think I left on September 5th. So, I literally closed on a house, moved everything in on September 4th, and then the very next evening packed my bag and jumped on a flight on September 5th.
It’s about a 10 to 11-hour flight [to Athens], I believe. It may be a little bit shorter. But the highlight of my flight was that I was sitting right next to Josh Blue, who is a prominent standup comedian right now. He’s an athlete. He was a soccer athlete, and so I sat next to him as well as Eli Wolf. Unfortunately, we lost Eli about a year ago. He was the premier disability advocate leader that we had in our country, and also both good friends, especially Eli. We definitely feel his loss now still, even though it’s been over a year. But it was interesting because I was either laughing my head off with Josh Blue or in deep conversation with Eli about how we can advocate for people with disabilities and things of that nature. But both are outstanding people, and how fortunate for me to be sitting next to a couple of great minds.
After arriving in Athens, Greece, of course, the first thing you see as you’re flying in is the blue ocean and the white sands. As we get there, the people were just outstanding. They just welcomed us with open arms. They knew what was going on. Of course, the Olympics had just been there, and they had just finished. I knew they had just built a subway system specifically for people to get downtown to get to the Paralympic Games. The blessing for me also is that my family was able to come there. They rented a car so they could drive into the venue.
Everywhere we went (and we were there for a month), anytime we went outside the village, people knew who we were. They opened up their home. They opened up downtown. It was very accommodating. Even though there was somewhat of a language barrier, they knew who we were and why we were there. Of course, we went to the Acropolis many times and the Parthenon. Another blessing is that, at that time, they were doing construction, so we were able to access the construction elevator to get us up to the Acropolis. I guess everything was aligned right for us. We were able to get about two of our athletes on each elevator to get up to the Acropolis. And it just blows your mind away, as you think “this is an 8,000-year-old structure.” In our country, being not even 250 years old, it’s very young compared to when you think of Athens. Being a history major in school [and first thinking about] ancient Greece, and then you think of something like ancient Egypt – Egypt was considered ancient to Greece during their heyday, 8,000 years ago. That’s mind-blowing how old the world is and how young our world is.
At the end of the day, it was a great experience. The people were great, [I] very much enjoyed it. It’s one of the great accomplishments of my life and I’m very fortunate and blessed to have all the support of family and friends and thank God that I had that opportunity and that I won a medal. Because it would be very – I’d be a little bit somber knowing that I went out there and didn’t get a medal. I believe we had 300 athletes on Team USA, and only 88 of us got medals. I’m very thankful to be one of them.
In regard to the Olympic Village, or the Paralympic Village in Athens, Greece, I will always remember three things. First was the food. Every time you went into the village to eat, into the cafeteria, [a] huge space, it seemed like [they had] every food genre or delicatessen [that] existed. There’s an Asian section, an Italian section, I guess an American section, a Mediterranean section, a Mexican section. I’m sure I’m forgetting some other food groups. But there was just this whole bevy of places to get food. And I guess the American section included a McDonald’s restaurant, which became very popular on the last day, and I’ll share that experience as well.
The other accommodation was the lodging. I guess the blessing with it all is that we all got our own rooms. But it wasn’t like it was in the Taj Mahal or anything. The room was basically a cubicle or workstation size, and then next to it, without really much of a door, was your teammate. So, we all stayed kind of in our own area. I believe the basketball team was next to us, and I also think the girls’ team was located above us, a floor up, because I remember seeing them many times as we were leaving to go to our venue. There was an area where we all kind of got together and socialized from time to time, or you were able to get on the internet and send an email back home. I think that was the extent.
Does everyone remember MySpace? I believe MySpace was the prominent social media medium at that time. So I remember, I believe, sending messages through MySpace. So again, these are just things that were in [the] very introductory phase of social media platforms as opposed to the giant that it is now with so many platforms. And the third and final thing I remember, in the village, when you went into the Paralympic Village, it seemed like you had anything you wanted to shop for, food-wise, clothes-wise, accessory-wise – you could even get haircuts. I remember taking advantage of the free haircuts because the free haircut could also mean a free hairstyle. And I remember the first time, and only time, in my life getting my hair highlighted. And I had these blonde streaks that I put in my hair. That was the only time I’d ever done that. I think I came home and did it one other time after the Paralympics, but I remember starting that at the Paralympics.
I also wanted to share the McDonald’s story. On the last day that we left Athens, we had engine problems. We were taxiing on our way to get home. Some of us were excited about getting home, but the pilot said, “Uh, there’s something wrong here. We have a sensor that’s going off. Not sure what it means. Give us a couple of minutes.” It comes back. After a couple of minutes, “Uh, we’re going to have to head back to the gate. There’s a sensor indicating there’s something wrong with some part of the engine, and we could get the part, but it’s not going to come until tomorrow. So we’re taking you all back to the village.” And the thing that people need to realize is loading up an airplane with 300 athletes with disabilities is not a 15 to 20-minute venture. It’s a good maybe two to three-hour adventure. Unloading them is very much the same thing. So, after two or three hours getting loaded up, we go back, get two or three hours to unload, and they drive us back to the village. What was interesting was that the village was empty. Every other country, of course, the majority of them being from Europe, probably got a quick flight or maybe took a train, what have you. So we get to the village and there is nobody there. The blessing with it all was our good friend McDonald’s, as it was open. So it was McDonald’s in the night, McDonald’s in the morning, and, of course, back to the airport and on our way home. But those are four things that I’ll remember from my time in the Paralympic Village.
Host
Here’s Bob discussing the heat of competition.
Bob
There was a game we played early on in the preliminary round in which I was the leading scorer. I believe I had 10 goals. I believe we were playing the Swedish team – don’t quote me on the team – and they just for some reason, I guess, looked at me – guy with no hands – [and thought] he’s not going to catch the ball. So, I would inbound the ball and then push to the very end, near the goal, and no one was guarding me. And so my teammates were just, “Bob’s wide open,” just throwing the ball. I remember having 10 goals and was given the Player of the Game award. I remember doing an interview afterward. So that was the first highlight.
The second one, of course, is the crossover game, in which we were the number one seed, and then you win your preliminary rounds, which we did. New Zealand was one of those teams in our pool. And the reason I mentioned New Zealand, I’ll tell you here at the end, we played New Zealand and beat [them] pretty soundly. So we go on number one in our pool. We cross over against Canada, we play and of course we lose to Canada, and that’s the game that gets you into the gold medal game or the bronze medal game. So we got sent to the bronze medal game. All very disheartened, upset, shocked. That following morning, as we headed to the bronze medal game, we were not in the right mindset. And I give all the credit in the world to our trainer. Every time I see him, I always mention this to him. His name is Red. The reason why we call him Red is because he’s this big, six-foot-five guy with red hair, so we call him Red. And as we’re taking the bus ride over to the venue, we’re all withdrawn, and no one’s saying anything to anybody. And like I said, our mind wasn’t there. We’re still upset about the night before, and Red starts pumping us up. And he, more than anything, made me cry because he was crying, because he made a statement like “this group of guys may not be around in the next four years, you know?” And when you hear things like that, it got me pumped up. I don’t know if it got all the other guys pumped up, but we played that bronze medal game, and it’s a hard game to play. It really is. We could have easily lost. We only won by one goal. We did beat Great Britain, and that got me the bronze medal, which, again, I’m very thankful for. I’ll always be thankful, happy and smiling when I see my teammates in ’04 because that’s something we shared. I proudly wore my bronze medal even to the afterparty they had, and I was the only one that did, but when I was getting a little razzing from my teammates, it’s like, “Hey, man, I might not be around in four years, and this might be my only go. I’m so glad I have a medal. I would be very upset if I didn’t get a medal after all the time and effort put into it.” So I’m very thankful for that. Thankful that Red got us fired up, at least he got me fired up, and we were able to win the bronze medal.
Some of our teams in the past, not specifically rugby, but some of our US teams will tell you that the bronze medal game is a hard game to play, especially when you were supposed to be the gold medal winner and playing the gold medal match. I always make the comment that the gold medal and the bronze medal are the only medals that you win. You get the silver medal because you lost, not to take away or diminish the value of our US team rugby who just won the silver medal. A lot of my friends have their first and maybe only ever silver medal. At the end of the day, Team USA is on the medal stand again from Paris 2024, which means our program is still kind of the model program. Great Britain didn’t medal, and they were the gold medal champions in 2021, so the team that won the gold at the last Paralympics didn’t medal at all in Paris 2024, and that’s what four years can do. So, we’re starting a new four-year cycle. Who knows who’s going to be there in 2028, [I] definitely hope Chuck Aoki will be there, because, the day he steps down, maybe the day the US doesn’t medal anymore. He’s that dominant of a player. So we’ll see what happens.
Host
Bob also reflected on the memories, regrets, and lessons he learned and had some advice for up-and-coming athletes.
Bob
So what other favorite memories do I have from the Athens Paralympic Games? Just connecting with my family. I live here in Alabama, [in] Birmingham, and they live in the Dallas, Texas area: my sister, who’s about a year and a half-two years older than me, lives out in California, and her youngest son, they all came over, as well as my cousin, who I grew up with, who lives in Denver, Colorado. He came out. So to see them all again and to know that was my fan base and support – and these are the people that have always been in my corner. My dad was the one that instilled the love of sport within me and my sister as well as my brothers, basically our whole family, and my nephews as well. Just having them all there, knowing that they were there, and after the games, we would get together, after the matches and chitchat. There was a time when they could come into the village and you could interact with them and have a meal with them, and things of that nature. So that happened, I think, pretty much every day. I think they might have left just a little bit after the games ended, but it was great to reconnect with them.
[My] other favorite moment is that the Murderball movie was made that showed our 2004 team that went to Athens, and all the things we had to go through. I guess the beauty of that movie was that it very much shows a lot of my family in the movie, and my father has been dead since 2017, so it’s good to kind of pop that in once in a while to see him and hear his voice. I guess to talk a little bit about the Murderball movie, it very much showcased our team, the three-year journey/four-year journey. They would film us every day. Sometimes we wouldn’t even know the cameras were rolling. We’re sitting here talking at breakfast or playing cards and talking, and you’ve got to be careful what you say because that information is used, and whatever they record and film is there forever for them to use. I remember we all signed the waiver, so the movie very much portrayed me as accurately as it could be. I’m very much like many of our athletes, men and women who play wheelchair sports, many of us have jobs, are married and have children. So, even though I wasn’t married at that time, I very much felt like I aligned myself with that type of athlete who was involved in community, involved in going to church and involved in working. Not that anyone else featured didn’t work or have a family, but I felt that was how I was portrayed in the movie. So, [I was] thankful to be a part of it, and very much thankful that he got nominated for an Academy Award.
When I wrote my book No Arms, No Legs, No Problem, I talked about the Murderball experience and how it was kind of Beatlemania in some ways. Do I have any regrets? Well, the journey of seven years on the national team and then four years to make the Paralympic team, and as I had said earlier, I have family that lives in separate states, in Texas and California, so I don’t get [many] chances to see them during that time, because I had to use my vacation time for work to go to training camps and go overseas and go to Paralympics in Athens, which I was gone for a month. So, all my vacation time had to go there, and then there was, when you’re on the national team, you also have to play on a club team. And the club team was the Lakeshore Demolition. Well, even though I’m a Lakeshore employee, I wasn’t paid to play rugby – I was paid to be a recreation specialist at that time. So, I had to use all my vacation and save up as much as I could. There are instances where I even had to work without pay. I’m the reason why that policy changed. They no longer give leave without pay.
But the thing that I regretted is that I missed a couple of family reunions, relatives I’ve not seen in a long time, and some I had not even met. And then I always tell this to my godson, who’s also my nephew, that I regretted missing him playing for a Texas high school football championship. Yeah, I know they have those every year, but to have a relative that played and won the Texas state championship, I believe it was the 6A division. It’s six-man football, is what he won it in, in which he played running back and I think defensive back. So again, he has the ring, [and] I’ve told him this many times that I regret not being able to be there.
I had to save up for vacation and things of that nature. I think I even missed a family funeral and some graduations. It was one of those things where it truly is this commitment and sacrifice that you make when you decide to give four years of your life to represent the country. Yeah, the life lessons that I have from the Paralympic experience really just came down to a couple of things. One, nothing’s wrong with setting your goals and setting them high and being challenged and tested. But the takeaway from that, and this is something I always remember the coach saying is, “All these drills that you learned, all the different passing drills and pushing drills, these are drills you can do throughout your entire life.” And it’s true. It’s been over 20 years since I was on the US team. I’m still playing wheelchair rugby club level. This is my 30th year. I’ll be starting here in a couple of weeks and I’m still doing those same drills. What the point he was trying to make is that just because you’re done competing at the highest level, you still need to exercise and stay in shape. You still have to take care of your body. It’s your responsibility. Yeah, you don’t have to train with the intensity of a Paralympic athlete, unless you want to. But all these drills that we’re showing you, you can do them in your everyday life, when you’re at home, on the road, on vacation, whatever they may be. Twenty years later, yes, I still do those same drills.
As far as any life lessons, I guess what I proved during that time to myself is I could really allow myself to be coached and pushed to the point where I was mentally and physically exhausted, that I really hated rugby because you’re just inundated with it all the time, and that I could take that. I could take the mental stress. And even though I don’t have any physical injuries from rugby, I get a lot of bruising and muscle fatigue, cuts, bruises, scratches and things of that nature. I wear prosthetics when I play, and sometimes the prosthetics will irritate and rub my skin to where I’ll get open sores. [I’m] very thankful to God that my body was able to hold up, because that is part of the test. It’s a battle of attrition, and if you can make it through some of the camps that we had to go through, then you’re ready for the Paralympics, and I guess that’s the lesson that I learned.
The advice I would give to any person with or without a disability is especially, foremost, just set your goals high. Realize it’s a commitment and go for it. You have no idea what’s going to happen. I know it sounds kind of cliche but aim for the sky, and if you don’t make it, at least you’re among the stars. But also realize that an opportunity like this doesn’t come around very often, so if you’re given that opportunity, whether an Olympic team or Paralympic team, you have to make that decision right now to commit to it. The commitment, like I said, will be physically and mentally exhausting. You’ll have to miss a lot of family activities, a lot of things you want to do: maybe you want to go hang out with friends and travel the world. These things have to be put on hold. This doesn’t happen all the time. I’m 55 years old. They’re not knocking on my door to come bring me back and that’s fine. You can only do this when you’re 25 or 35. I think one of our oldest players, I believe, is 45, so it’s just one of those things where it’s not going to happen all the time unless you can make it a life career, and those athletes that do, more power to you.
I was given an option about whether to continue playing athletically for Team USA, which would mean quitting my job. Full disclosure, my job pays more, so I didn’t see myself continuing with wheelchair sports at that level. I still do from the club level. So, at the end of the day, it’s just a great experience, and take advantage of it. If you have that opportunity, don’t let any moment pass by. Don’t be your own stumbling block. Make the commitment. Don’t be afraid to let everybody know, this is what I’m committing to. This is how I need your support. I remember many times knowing I was going to have to raise money, so I created a budget. Where do I go to get this money? I would go to places like where I did my laundry and the dry-cleaning place. I bought a couple of cars; I went to the car dealership. There are ways to find money. There are plenty of resources online now for funding, including the CAF grant (Challenged Athletes Foundation). Those are places where people with disabilities can go and receive a financial grant for equipment, even for training and travel. Also, there’s an organization called Move United, which is nationally known. There seems to be a chapter in every state, and a lot of these chapters have adaptive equipment, and also programs for people with disabilities. And it can be Paralympic-level opportunities. There are teams that are affiliated with Move United. I know I’m part of the wheelchair football league that exists because of Move United. So, during the summer, I’ll do wheelchair football. Again, there are plenty of activities to be involved in. If you’re ever wanting any resource information, just [email us at] nchpad@uab.edu and we can definitely provide you with that information as well.
Host
Here are Bob’s final thoughts on his experience.
Bob
When I reflect on my experience now, I just realize how blessed I was to be able to have that opportunity. Looking back 20 years later, [I’m] just thankful I had that opportunity [and] took advantage of the opportunity, and it has really provided a platform to allow me to do things 20 years later. To talk about being a Paralympian and my book, No Arms, No Legs, No Problem. And also realizing that the reason I have a disability is to promote the things that can be done, from an athletic standpoint, from a recreation standpoint and adaptive equipment.
During the off-season, during the summer, I’ll also play tennis in which I have an adaptive tennis racket. Over the years I’ve gone water skiing. As I think back, [the Paralympics was] just a very wonderful opportunity I was able to experience. It’s been 20 years and about 20 pounds ago. Even though I am more aware of how important health is now, and even when I eat is more important now than I thought it was about 20 years ago. [What would I] go back and tell my younger self? Adhere to nutritious eating. I know that’s something you think in your 20s “oh it’s no big deal now,” and it probably doesn’t feel like it is a big deal now, but I know with my family history – I don’t have the best genetic background – so I’m more attuned now to what I eat, and of course, always adhering to exercise and recreation and sports as much as I can.
One of these days it’s going to be all over, but as of right now, I’m using every opportunity to continue to participate in sports and activities, and [I] very much enjoy it. As I reflect on that experience at the Paralympics, it was the ultimate for my chosen recreation sport, which is wheelchair rugby. It’s the ultimate level. I’ve been very fortunate to win seven club-level championships, and those are unique in their own right, but in the Paralympics, only very few are asked and very few make it – and fewer than that even medal. So again, [I’m] very thankful to God, my family and all the support of organizations like the Lakeshore Foundation, Challenge Athletes Foundation and Challenged Athletes Fund. [I’m] very thankful for all the organizations and support of family and friends over the years that have really made me have a very unique platform to preach about the greatness of having a disability and all the opportunities that disabilities provide.
Host
Thanks for listening to the very first edition of NCHPAD’s All Things Inclusion podcast. We’ll provide a link with show notes, including full transcripts, links and more in the podcast description. If you have questions for Bob or would like to access our free resources, programs and partnership opportunities, email us at nchpad@uab.edu, call us at 866-866-8896, or check out our website at ncpad.org.
*Closing Music*